What do you think of Okklahoma's latest abortion legislation?

[msc545]

Oklahoma lawmakers on Thursday passed a bill that would ban abortions from the moment of “fertilization,” effectively prohibiting almost all abortions in the state. There are no exceptions for rape or incest, and the destruction of a fertilized human egg is a crime.

[goaded]

They're off the deep end. It's also an imposition of their interpretation of their religion on everyone. You can make a secular argument for making abortions more limited as the overall level of suffering increases, but it's a hell of a long time after fertilisation that there's anything that can suffer will be affected.

[msc545]

how do you know that?

[goaded]

Because something without a working brain can't suffer. Are you vegan?

[msc545]

how do you know it has no "working brain" and how do you know a brain is needed at all?

[msc545]

Brain activity in a fetus is detectable at 5 weeks and probably starts at 1 week or less.

[goaded]

A transistor radio is not a computer. A seed is not a tree. A fetus is not a person.

"When does a fetus have brain activity?

The first synapses in baby’s spinal cord form during week 7 of pregnancy. By week 8, electrical activity begins in the brain — allowing your baby to coordinate his first (spontaneous) movements that doctors can even see on an ultrasound!

Your baby’s brain continues to develop in the coming weeks, endowing him with a remarkable range of involuntary movements like stretching, yawning and sucking by the end of the first trimester and more coordinated movements in the second trimester.

That said, the brainstem, which controls vital functions like heart rate and breathing, isn’t mostly complete until the end of the second trimester, and the cerebral cortex doesn’t take up its duties until the third trimester."
www.whattoexpect.com/.../

[msc545]

what makes you think that the information you got is accurate? What does "suffering" consist of?

[goaded]

Do you have information that disputes it? Are you vegan? Do you care about the suffering of a shrimp, an octopus, a cow? They have the ability to react to their environment, form relationships.

[msc545]

you made the assertions, support them with something. I don't have to prove a negative.

[goaded]

What "negative"?

[msc545]

ASking m to "prove" that things are untrue is asking me to prove a negative.

[msc545]

Also, stop baiting with irrelevant questions.

[goaded]

They're not irrelevant, and you're asserting that a cell is a person, that a group of cells with a neuron is a person, a group of cells without a working brainstem is a person and a body without a working cerebral cortex is a person. You may believe that, but you're going against other religions and science.

[msc545]

What is your definition of a "person" ?

[Juxtapose]

@msc545 if you kill the damn thing before it has a brainstem then you are 100% guaranteed to not cause pain.

[msc545]

@Juxtapose How do you know that?

[Juxtapose]

You need a consciousness to experience pain and without a brain there is no consciousness.

Take my brain out of my skull then kick me or try to get a reaction out of me, you won't get anything. Then put my brain in a machine that can keep the brain alive and give the brain control and all of a sudden my new body is a machine while my biological carcass has no connection to me anymore.

The brain is the only thing that matters with consciousness, at least with humans. You can make an argument that plants or other creatures don't need a brain to perceive the world but we are not plants are other creatures.

[msc545]

What is consciousness?

[Juxtapose]

If I jab you with a pencil you're gonna feel it. If I talk to you then you will hear me, see me in front of you. You can remember what I say when I'm not there, etc. It's the feeling of being behind your eyes, housed in a body or in the future, maybe a machine.

You are the chemical and electrical storm in your brain and when is destroyed you will not exist anymore.

[Juxtapose]

On contrast, a rock has no mind. It is an object with no thoughts or sensations.

[Juxtapose]

*In contrast

[msc545]

@Juxtapose This is your definition of consciousness?

[Juxtapose]

*sighs* I thought you'd get it but here's the simple, official definition:

the state of being awake and aware of one's surroundings.

"she failed to regain consciousness and died two days later"

[msc545]

@Juxtapose where is consciousness located?

[goaded]

He already said the brain. How do you know a cabbage isn't conscious?

[msc545]

I don't know - not really.

[goaded]

Then your definition of conciousness has no value as a deciding factor on whether it is moral to end a living thing's life, does it? Unless you only eat stones and drink filtered water.

[Juxtapose]

@msc545 yeah as @goaded said it's the brain. Keep in mind we are human and not other animals, we need a brain for consciousness.

Your consciousness is an electrical and chemical storm in your brain.

[msc545]

@Juxtapose How do you know that is the case?

[goaded]

Because manipulating the brain, through drugs, electricity, blood clots, or simply prodding it, alters your consciousness.

[Juxtapose]

www.google.com/.../amp

[goaded]

@Juxtapose F**k Google: www.sciencealert.com/harvard-scientists-think-they-ve-pinpointed-the-neural-source-of-consciousness

Interesting article, though.

[Cubus]

The law is made by representatives of a nation (or state in this case) and most people in Oklahoma support it, so everything is correct. Law is to fulfil the will of the people (at least in democracies).

[goaded]

"Less than one-third of Oklahoma voters want a ban on all abortions and only Republicans are deeply divided on the question, according to a poll taken before the state Legislature approved bills this year aimed at shutting down most abortions."
eu.oklahoman.com/.../

[Cubus]

@goaded "Most abortions", not "all abortion". People who support most abortions is a lot more.

[goaded]

What abortions are allowed, if you're not even allowed to destroy a fertilised egg before it's even implanted?

[whirled_up_girl]

If it passes it may ban certain types of contraceptives like the paraguard for instance which doesn't always stop fertilization but sometimes works by preventing implantation of a fertilized egg. https://www.paragard.com/how-paragard-works/

[whirled_up_girl]

Oh it did pass, well okay then, I guess the legislators in that state will have to sort that out.

[PinkMichae]

I think it won't pass if majority of people disagree with it. But if majority of people agree then that's their right to make that law in their state.

[exitseven]

I just would not use fertilizer. Problem solved.

No fetus can beat us

[bolverk]

Could it be that they are trying to encourage a more pro active use by women of the 30+ methods of contraception they have access to?

[AviatorTom]

Legally, it will never stand a court test, because there is no way to identify exactly when fertilization took place.

[ChrisMaster69]

If true it shows just how pathetic humans can actually be.

American is sliding to become a larger version of Afghanistan.

[Little_Bumblebee]

So true, it's sad

[ChrisMaster69]

@Little_Bumblebee yeah

You can put that fertilised egg in a freezer for 20 years, try that with a baby at 1

[goaded]

OK, I'll tell you how it works out in the morning.

[goaded]

It did not end well.

[Guy13]

Moving across the South to gulf to SE…
Somewhere economics, like Drugs-Pfizer etc, are going to “trump” Wrong over Right. Politicians SUCK!!!’

[OddBeMe]

Anything that comes out of Oklahoma I hate immediately. Sorry.

[Juxtapose]

Saaaame.

[DWornock]

The lawmakers believe they are the masters and the citizens of Oklahoma are their slaves.

[CloudMassacre]

Handmaids Tale is supposed to be a work of fiction not a guideline

[Juxtapose]

It's awful and treats women like cattle by forcing pregnancies.

[BarryLiverstone]

Pandering to their base